Kennedy's Disease Association

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Kennedy's Disease Chat Transcript
Topics: Asking for Help

Chat Participants:

  • terryw
  • patrick
  • jock
  • kdfl
  • don48312
  • phoenixet
  • teda
  • dbenson
  • vern

Begin Chat

terryw -- {welcome terryw}

vern -- {welcome vern}

jock -- {welcome jock}

terryw -- hello

jock -- Good morning from Australia

terryw -- Glad you too can make it, a few of our regulars e-mailed me and said they could not make it today, they had other meetings

jock -- Been in bed all day got the cold AGAIN just got up to join in the chat

terryw -- sorry to hear that, hope you recover quickly

jock -- If I don't recover I will be dead

terryw -- Don't say that...

terryw -- how are you both?

dbenson -- {welcome dbenson}

vern -- Well, I finally got my act together. Made it on time instead of 3 hrs. late.

terryw -- Good work vern :)

terryw -- Hi Dbenson

don48312 -- {welcome don48312}

teda -- {welcome teda}

dbenson -- Hello everybody

vern -- Hang in there, Jock

terryw -- hi ted

jock -- Hello Don

jock -- Hi Vern

phoenixet -- {welcome phoenixet}

terryw -- hi don

kdfl -- {welcome kdfl}

terryw -- hi phoenixet

don48312 -- Hi all from sunny FL

jock -- Terry how is Susanne

terryw -- Susanne is away on business today, she sends her greetings.

dbenson -- Duane is gone today also, so I (Lori-wife) am filling in.

terryw -- wow, here they come, getting quite a group this morning

teda -- good morning from Redwood City, CA

phoenixet -- hello everyone

dbenson -- Before we start, has anybody gotten a confirmed schedule from Chicago?

terryw -- yes, we got our mailer from FSMA a month o so ago.

don48312 -- looks like we will make the convention in Chicago for Saturday only

terryw -- Lori, did you register ?

dbenson -- Yes we registered for different sessions but have not gotten confirmation on which ones we will be attending.

terryw -- dbenson, I have to check our packet to see if they sent up a confirmation of the classes we selected, I will let you know

don48312 -- at the conventions, the adult SMA sessions were never full

terryw -- Yes, don is correct, I think if you did not get what you scheduled they would notify you. Otherwise you get what you select I think.

dbenson -- Okay.

don48312 -- the majority of the convention participants are parents of kids with SMA. those are the sessions that are full, as I remember.

kdfl -- Hi also from sunny Florida

don48312 -- Hi John

vern -- It mist be everybody thinking about all those good recipes

jock -- I will start again Hello everybody

kdfl -- Terry, glad to hear Susanne got all her recipes together OK!!!

terryw -- Yes , Susanne says thank you to all that contributed & ordered cookbooks a recipes.

vern -- Hi Jock

don48312 -- I had lunch with kdfl this week

kdfl -- Don, and a very enjoyable lunch it was.

terryw -- how was it don?

don48312 -- had a nice time with kdfl and our wives.

patrick -- {welcome patrick}

terryw -- Alistair, since the topic of today's chat was your idea would you like to start it off?. The topic is asking for help everyone.

billeric -- {welcome billeric}

jock -- Gi Day Patrick

patrick -- Hi, all. I had a bit of trouble entering. How is everyone?

terryw -- hi bill & patrick

patrick -- hi, Jock

vern -- Is there any of the group that lives in the San Francisco North Bay? I live in Santa Rosa.

teda -- vern I live in Redwood City on the peninsula south of SF

terryw -- hi patrick, fingers are still not working too well so I am going to sit back more this chat and let you guys take the reins.

terryw -- Jock, did you want to start it off ?

billeric -- A good refreshing Minnesota morning to you all

patrick -- A late Happy Mothers Day to all you mothers out there --

dbenson -- Thank you.

jock -- Well friends all last October I was at a loss till I emailed Terry and he put me in touch with the list of KD sufferers and since then it has been a lot easier to except being a KD person. As I am the only one in New South Wales it was hard to get info but that has all changed

dbenson -- More and more information is becoming available and this chat and talking to other KD people make it much easier to understand and sometimes to accept.

dbenson -- The doctors here in South Dakota are asking us for any information that we may obtain so that they can get to know the disease better.

jock -- I have got to agree Patrick I went to see my doctor and he admitted that I know more about KD than the doctors

terryw -- We need to change that Jock.

don48312 -- my doc is very knowledgeable on KD

don48312 -- my doc had 3 KD patients

jock -- Yes but how? there is no pamphlets on KD or video tapes

patrick -- Since I graduated last week, I'm putting all me energies into finishing a pamphlet and booklet on KD. I'm doing it in Adobe Acrobat, and then anyone can down load it.

dbenson -- Congratulations Patrick.

patrick -- Thanks - did you know that when you graduate, you are given a empathy folder in the ceremony - the actual diploma is mailed in July. ???

patrick -- empthy=empty

patrick -- Hopefully, we can spread the word in the general medical community about KD.

patrick -- I got a call from a lady in New York City this week. She was a bit hysterical, and rightly so. Her husband was in the hospital with aspiration pneumonia. He had been diagnosed with KD, but none of the doctors treating him knew anything about it.

patrick -- Neurologists know about KD, but general med doctors, pulmonary specialists, etc. usually have never heard of it.

vern -- I have been seeing a Neurologist that has a private practice and believes in trying to mesh Eastern and Western medicine. I have been having Acupuncture regularly, and along with certain herbs & vitamins it seems to take away a lot of the leg pain.

patrick -- Has anyone had a case of pneumonia due to breathing in something 'cause you can't swallow correctly due to KD?

don48312 -- not yet pat, but discussed with doctor

patrick -- This lady, about 50 something, didn't have a computer. She got my telephone number somewhere and called me. Her sister had a 'computer, and I sent her Dr. LaSpada's article to take to the doctors.

dbenson -- Which article is this?

terryw -- So, who has problems swallowing their pride and asking for help when they should? I am one of them...

dbenson -- So is Duane.

billeric -- Me too. I would rather risk throwing my back out than ask someone to lift something for me. You know, nothings a matter with me!

kdfl -- My problem is not ASKING for help but being OFFERED more help than

I really want or NEED.

don48312 -- I ask for help all the time if I think I need it. everyone I have asked has been glad to help

terryw -- One of the problems for me with asking for help is that it makes me feel useless.

vern -- I'm still fighting with accepting my limitations. "I can do it myself" Then I get into troubled situations.

jock -- If you don't ask you suffer in side building up the worry of not knowing what to do for the best

phoenixet -- I have been there, Vern

don48312 -- I think we all go through 3 stages of KD, 1) denial, 2) depression, and 3) acceptance

phoenixet -- you are right Don

vern -- I seem to vacillate over the last 9 years fighting with all three stages.

patrick -- Don, Dr. Kubler-Ross studied that and wrote several books. Her findings were that anyone faced with a terminal illness, severe medical problem, even divorce or financial failure go through those stages - Denial, anger, Bargaining, and Acceptance. Some people get stuck in one stage. Others repeat stages. Even when you have resolved all the issues, sometimes another little problem or setback can toss you back into the cycle.

jock -- I have learned to except the things I can not change

kdfl -- Jock, that sounds like the Serenity Prayer to me.

jock -- Yes

billeric -- I fear falling down the most. Once I am down I can't get up without a stool or something to lean on.

jock -- Hello Eric Alistair here

billeric -- Good to see you up and around, Alistair

teda -- yes gravity will always win

terryw -- it is so easy now for me to lose my balance. I was trying to video tape something the other day and when I look through the viewfinder I get very unbalanced now and that is something new to me.

kdfl -- Falling is also my biggest fear. I am too much of a dead weight for anyone easily pick up and they all think they have to rather than getting me a stool or chair and letting me take my time.

patrick -- Loss of balance is both a muscular thing - we lose the ability to regain our balance with muscular action; and it is also a nerve problem - our 'dead' and injured neurons don't give our brains the correct info as to what our body's position is.

patrick -- neurons=

terryw -- Thanks Patrick, that makes sense.

dbenson -- I think the hardest part for Duane is not knowing what is going to happen next, will his legs get weaker, tongue or what part. We are going on a year since diagnosis and have noticed more weakness on one side of the body and especially the tongue but just do not know what to expect and realizing that everybody is different. That is what is so difficult.

don48312 -- true db, fear of the unknown. I suffer from that.

teda -- and then we don't know how fast or slow it will progress

vern -- I am finding that my whole being is getting weaker,. Speech is starting to be affected, swallowing harder & the constant falling down, crawling to a low stool to agonize over pulling myself up,

phoenixet -- If I was you vern, I would look into walking aids or an electric chair. Don't wait until you suffer a serious injury like I did.

kdfl -- Vern, I agree to the Assistive devices as I had a fall that broke my foot and was miserable for three months in a wheelchair.

jock -- After the last chat session I had a problem and I wrote to Dr Fischbeck how supplied me with the answer

don48312 -- what problem Jock?

don48312 -- if I might ask?

jock -- E Mail Well it was spoken about KD people passing away around the sixty to seventy age bracket

vern -- Not this former Marine ! I'm pushing the 70 mark (68) and I'm still standing (Somewhat) and I'm going to be around for a long time!

don48312 -- former Jarhead here also Vern, 6 years in the 60's.

vern -- Don, Korea 1953

don48312 -- Vern, embassy duty, electronics, new Corps, lol

dbenson -- How do you get hold of Dr. Fischbeck?

patrick -- I have Dr. Fischbeck contact points. I can send them to you. However, he is very busy, and I think some assistant screens his messages...

dbenson -- That would be great Patrick.

dbenson -- Do you find your voice getting weaker and more raspy?

terryw -- my voice is in that stage now

kdfl -- My voice kind of comes and goes. Some days it is better than others.

dbenson -- Terry, how long have you had KD? So this was not the first thing that occurred with your KD then. This is one of the first things with Duane was the voice and the swallowing.

terryw -- Dbenson, I have had major symptoms for the past 7 years

terryw -- dbenson, the first thing was the legs getting weak, then the arms a few years later, then the lungs, and now the voice.

dbenson -- Duane started off with just his one arm and then it progressed to bulbar with the speech and tongue wasting, legs are getting weaker but is not in a wheelchair yet.

teda -- sometimes it is seems hard just to get the mouth and tongue to form the words

patrick -- That lady's husband I mentioned who had pneumonia had an odd progression of KD. According to his wife, if started with his hands (they first thought it was carpal tunnel syndrome), but the rapidly progressed to bulbar, causing him not to be able to swallow. His legs aren't affect much, and he can climb stairs. His progress seems the reverse of usual.

Any comments?

jock -- I have an advantage over you all that my speech has deteriated but to me it does not matter as the Australians could not understand my Scottish accent

dbenson -- It seems to affect everybody so differently, that is what makes it so difficult to understand.

billeric -- I can trace minor symptoms for the past 15 years but the last 5 years some have really accelerated.

jock -- my legs are weaker sit on the floor I can not get p unless I pull on a chair to get up

kdfl -- I have had symptoms for the past 20 years.

patrick -- This is interesting. The research literature says that KD usually starts in distal muscles (those farthest away from the spine), such as the calf. It sounds like we have a mix of early bulbar symptoms which is characteristic of some forms of ALS, but not noted for KD.

phoenixet -- I believe what ever group of muscles you use the most are the ones that will waste first

terryw -- Dbenson, what is/was Duanes line of work, did he use his hands a lot on very detailed tasks?

dbenson -- That is what our doctors first thoughts was that it was ALS but yet had signs of KD. DNA proved the KD. Duane was a farmer and a truck driver and used his legs more than anything else and it was when he started falling off of storage bins and getting run over by combines that we knew something was just not right.

terryw -- WHAT!

terryw -- Run over ?

patrick -- Well, at least it was only a combine. Then corn pickers will really eat you up! LOL

dbenson -- That is what we have been told. This last week Duane was having a lot of back pain and they thought it might be a kidney stone but everything came back negative and so they said it was muscles in the lower lumbar area wasting. Yes, he was run over by a combine driven by our then 16 year old son. Had a fractured shoulder, almost ran over the head. Very bad situation.

phoenixet -- KD and dangerous machinery don't mix well

phoenixet -- we just don't have the reflexes

terryw -- He should have let your son go to that party the night before LOL. I hope he was not seriously hurt. Teenage kids you got to love em.

patrick -- KD and anything on the floor at night don't mix either!

dbenson -- You're telling me. That is why they put him on full disability right away because he also got his arm caught in a grain auger right before the diagnosis.

terryw -- Dbenson, I duane ok now, how long ago was this?

dbenson -- Combine accident was 4 years ago, grain auger was just last summer.

terryw -- Boy, it sounds like farming is dangerous business.

phoenixet -- unfortunately some of us (myself included) learn the hard way

jock -- I was told to stop using power saws

billeric -- I think part of the problem is that we don't want to give up anything we like to do for fear we will never do it again.

terryw -- I can give up mowing the lawn LOL

kdfl -- I'm with you Terry. That's why I have a condo where that is all taken care of for me.

dbenson -- Yes, it is very hard to give up something that you've wanted to

do your whole life and sit back and watch somebody else to it for you.

patrick -- I used to farm before I joined the Army. Many people don't realize how dangerous farming is. I live in rural Kansas and I've heard of people dying around here lately from grain elevator explosions, suffocation when working in an elevator that had a lot of carbon monoxide,

tractor rollovers, arms pulled off by machinery - and that's just the one's that make the paper.

don48312 -- anybody here?

terryw -- yep

vern -- Being my first chat and being the eldest (I think) How do I contact each of you after he chat is over?

kdfl -- Vern, my email address is on the web site under John Mengel.

kdfl -- Vern, my email is This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.

jock -- Vern put up your email

vern -- This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.

jock -- Thank you will be in touch

vern -- Has anyone had any experience with the ADA (American Disabilities Advocates) in getting things done?

terryw -- The following message is from Yves, He could not make it today but wanted me to ask "where in U.S we can find statistical results about muscular testing with patients motor-neuron diseases(ALS or Kennedy Disease). Its very important, because in Europe we don't have this kind of study"

terryw -- patrick do you know

jock -- answering Yves question the Irish MND who send our MND group a news letter would be one of the better countries that are doing research

phoenixet -- that does appear to be a fact of life for us, but we must remain innovative in our approach to the things we need to do

terryw -- Susanne usually mows the lawn all the time now.

phoenixet -- where there is a will, there usually is a way

teda -- Do you have any neighborhood kids that want to earn a few bucks?

teda -- That would be easier than Susanne doing it.

terryw -- no, that went out in the early 70's when I used to wash cars, mow lawns, do bottle drives. I have never been asked by a neighbor kid to have that done. Where has a Childs sense of earning a dollar gone to ?

jock -- Terry changed days my friend

patrick -- Terry, I agree. Kids don't want to work for money any more. I bought my first car a year after high school when working for a pipeline. Now, kids are given a new car when they hit 16, and all the money they need. Seems like, anyway.

billeric -- My wife is outside mowing now. I wish it were me but that's not the real world.

patrick -- I was thinking about all the things I've done in my life - and I've been fortunate - and the things I still want to do. Although I've flown helicopters, climbed mountains, and did a lot of rappelling, I've never parachuted. My legs are too weak for a single jump, but a goal of

mine is to do a tandem jump. Anyone else have things they want to do like that?

terryw -- I want to jump also

dbenson -- Duane just wants to stay active in his kid's activities as they are still young at 10, 12 and 15 and he has turned over the reins of the farm to our oldest son (yes the one that ran him over) who is now 20. Wants to help then with basketball, softball, and football. He has done very well thus far.

teda -- The are always more things to do in life. Now we have to be realistic and creative I did my jumps in the 70's

patrick -- Ted, how many did you have? Any night jumps, HALOs, HAHOs,, etc. ?

teda -- All static line jumps (5) when I was at McDell AFB Tampa FL

don48312 -- teda, kdfl & I are very close to McDill

teda -- I'm in CA now. That was during my Air Force days, 71 -75.

jock -- You can achieve many goals if you want to

kdfl -- Patrick, I guess I'm not the adventurous type and am not too anxious to do any of those CRAZY things. I'm happy doing my computer thing with our 2000 member club here in Sun City Center.

phoenixet -- you must have dreams and goals in order to feel alive and fight depression, but they must be realistic

don48312 -- I think we must be thankful we had normal lives for part of

our existence. Most MD sufferers never experience anything but a w/c

billeric -- dbenson--are you on the current KD list?

terryw -- who has problems with jar lids being too tight ?

patrick -- Jar lids are child and KD proof

terryw -- LOL

patrick -- I use a old big pair of slip joint pliers on smaller lids and bottle tops.

kdfl -- Jar lids are one place I ask for help.

patrick -- Sears makes a strap wrench that I'm going to get. It is a nylon reinforced strap that wraps around things like a jar lid, and when you pull the handle, the strap tightens. In fact, I ought to get two- one for the lid and one for the bottle.

phoenixet -- they sell a cheap aid for jars. It resembles two hacksaw blades at a 45 degree angle and it mounts on any flat surface. I bought mine at Kmart

patrick -- Phoenix - what's your first name, and do those things really work?

phoenixet -- mine works great, the name is Henry

patrick -- Thanks, Henry. I'll get one of those instead - probably cheaper and easier

teda -- The only problem with those kinds of lid removers is they mount under a cabinet and you have to have the strength to push up and turn at the same time.

patrick -- Let's invent a better jar opener - we could make an infomercial and sell millions...

vern -- Sounds Good!!!

vern -- I just finished putting in a walkway so I could run my scooter behind the house to work in our small garden. Unloaded the 12"x12" pavers one at a time while sitting on the scooter then drove back and set it in place. It is finished and looks really rustic, but it works.

jock -- I just finished building a ramp for my daughters friend that has cancer in the hip bone. was very sore for a few days after.

vern -- I still have a problem with pushing myself too far when I'm doing something. It's almost as if when the muscles get warmed up you think you can work the way you did pre-KD and by the time you feel the fatigue you are really in trouble.

dbenson -- That is the same problem that Duane has Vern.

dbenson -- I don't know. I (Lori) have not been real good at keeping on

top of everything with the kids, Duane, doctors and my work. I am going to

try harder. I did not even get any recipes sent in for the cookbook.

don48312 -- I was in CA for part of my military hitch, Camp Pendleton and MCRD San Diego

don48312 -- Camp

patrick -- I went to flight school at Ft Rucker. (That's in LA - Lower Alabama) I had my first emergency back operation at Keesler AFB Medical Center.

kdfl -- Patrick, I was stationed at Keesler from 1958 to 62.

don48312 -- god, you're old John, lol

teda -- I was at Keesler from 1971 -72

phoenixet -- appreciate the company folks but I have to leave. Thanks for everything. bye

phoenixet -- {goodbye phoenixet}

jock -- Bye

vern -- Bye

don48312 -- bye phoe

jock -- What you can not do you ask for Help

billeric -- Mornings are the best for me. I try to do the hardest things then and take it easy in the afternoons.

terryw -- I get really bad when I try to stay awake like 18-22 hours straight because of a party or something. I feel terrible the next day or so and that's not from drinking LOL. Anyone else have problems with staying up too long, My lungs seem to get exhausted.

vern -- Terry, What's LOL?

terryw -- Laugh out Loud

teda -- I've never heard Laugh out Loud, always heard Little old Lady

don48312 -- lol is used very often in chats

dbenson -- Does anybody have a lot of pain so that they have to be on medication constantly?

terryw -- bye pho

don48312 -- I am lucky, no pain yet

kdfl -- I have no pain at all either.

jock -- Only in my hip joints

billeric -- I take about 4 Tylenol a day and that keeps my pain tolerable.

terryw -- Lucky you

dbenson -- Duane is on Celebrex daily and now they have put him on Darvocet every 6 hours for the pain. I wonder why some have pain and others do not.

terryw -- Remember those days as a kid when you use to go swimming until your lungs hurt when you breathe in? that's the way my lungs feel if I stay up too long.

patrick -- When I graduated, my three sisters drove up for the ceremony, and for four day I was dragged around, mostly sitting in a car, chair, or wheelchair, talking, eating, shopping, eating, graduating, eating, shopping, etc. I got so exhausted that after they left, I slept on and off for almost two straight days.

jock -- There is nine on this chat and we are all different in KD

vern -- There were times when even Vicodin or percaset wouldn't cut the

pain in my legs so I could get to sleep. My bed looks like I've been

trying to run from the North Koreans every morning,

kdfl -- My LATE night is about 10:15 or so.

dbenson -- Boy, that sounds familiar.

billeric -- I think rest is really important for us. I try to get at least 8 hours sleep a night.

patrick -- Terry, have you ever been seen by a respiratory or speech therapist? I wonder if they know ways to help us keep our lung capacity

jock -- Patrick I have just had a lung function test which showed a slight improvement than twelve moths ago but the diaphragm was weaker

terryw -- No Patrick, I need to make an appt to see one.

terryw -- I am having a terrible time now with the leg twitching thing when trying to fall asleep. its driving me crazy !!!!

dbenson -- Duane is on Klonpin now at night for the twitching so that he can get to sleep, mostly in the abdomen.

terryw -- Thanks Deb, I will ask my DR about that drug

dbenson -- Klonpin=Klonopin

terryw -- about I mean, I told you the fingers were not working too well

teda -- I need 8 hours sleep but if I stay in bed much longer then 8 I get more pain in my butt and legs

terryw -- I get the same pain

terryw -- me also

don48312 -- I use to stay up till all hours of the morning till doc put me on Neurontin. now I sleep like baby

kdfl -- I am also taking Neurontin but I could never stay up late even

without it.

billeric -- I take neurontin also but I was never sure why my retired neurologist prescribed it.

don48312 -- bill, my doc gave it to me to dry up throat fluids

kdfl -- I'm not sure about Neurontin either. I don't see much effect. She

is furnishing me samples so I guess it isn't hurting anything.

billeric -- I am seeing a new neurologist in July so I will see what his take on Neurontin is.

patrick -- My neurologist prescribed a med for me that is intended to help stop twitching and spasms. Side effects: it makes me very sleepy and it gives me dry mouth.

patrick -- I'm supposed to take 3X day, but if I take it first thing in the morning, unless I drink a lot of coffee, I'll get sleepy and take a nap before noon. If I take it in the afternoon, I'm worthless. If I take it at night, it really helps me to sleep. I can't take it and drive, cause

I can't keep my eyes open...

vern -- About a year ago they put me on a C-Pap Unit to help me breath a night. Diagnosed with sleep apnea. worked fine, could breath until about 3:00 am then I'd take the thing off and finally go to sleep. I'm not using it anymore.

don48312 -- take what pat?

patrick -- I can't think of that medicine's name but I will have it next chat.

don48312 -- ok, tks pat

dbenson -- Duane needs to have a sleep test.

jock -- Also has a sleep test that showed I was getting 100% oxygen when sleeping

patrick -- For you Jarheads out there, have you ever heard the term "BAM"?

patrick -- My Dad was in the AAF/USAF from '41-'66 and he told be what a BAM was: Broad As*sed Marine, as in female Marine. Since my mom was a Marine during WWII, she'd really get teed off at him. :-)

terryw -- I have terrible allergies which does not help my situation & breathing

terryw -- I got a lemon of a body. I want my money back

teda -- Terry, I never had allergies til I came to CA. Now mine are bad at certain times of the year

don48312 -- terry, what ever happened to the KD survey?

terryw -- It is now in the hands of Dr Fischbeck for review

dbenson -- Well, hate to go but will talk to you the next time. Lori

dbenson -- {goodbye dbenson}

don48312 -- nice chatting Lori

vern -- I think it's amazing we all have KD, but everyone's symptoms, lifestyle and ways of handling things is so diversified.

jock -- I look at it this way I have it , it is not going to go away so make the best of it

don48312 -- right attitude Jock

jock -- Bye Benson

vern -- bye benson

billeric -- By Lori

kdfl -- Bye ALL

terryw -- ok everyone we need to wrap up here soon the chat will do an automatic end on us soon

terryw -- bye

billeric -- Thanks Terry. It's appreciated.

teda -- Bye all

jock -- God that was a quick hour Bye All

patrick -- Bye-bye

terryw -- your all welcome

teda -- {goodbye teda}

vern -- Hey It's been great. Thanks Terry & Susanne for getting us all together. Love to hear from all. Vern

terryw -- bye alistair

terryw -- bye Vern

don48312 -- c u all in 2 weeks, bye

kdfl -- See you all in a couple weeks.

terryw -- ok don, bye

terryw -- see you all, I am going to sign off

billeric -- {goodbye billeric}

vern -- I'm outta here!

vern -- {goodbye vern}

patrick -- Adios, my friends. Time for Ranger Pat to go back to the corral...

patrick -- {goodbye patrick}

kdfl -- {goodbye kdfl}

vern -- {welcome vern}

vern -- {goodbye vern}


End Chat