Kennedy's Disease Association

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Kennedy's Disease Chat Transcript
4-21-01
Topics: Exercise and Weight Control

Chat Participants:
  • Terryw
  • Jock
  • Gryphon
  • Chuck
  • don4831
  • Jean
  • Toddrallen

jock -- {welcome jock}

jock -- Good morning from Australia

terryw -- hi jock, you must be new

terryw -- do you know Alistair

jock -- Hello Terry nice to be here it is Alistair nick name jock

terryw -- Great, glad you could make it, sorry you had to stay up so late.

jock -- sleep in tomorrow

gryphon -- Hey Alistair, how did you get the nickname Jock?

jock -- Come from Scotland

gryphon -- Okay. Sounds good.

chuck -- {welcome chuck}

terryw -- {welcome terryw}

terryw -- hello all

terryw -- Hi Alistair. Terry filled me in! Thanks for making the

exhausting effort to join us. Its, what? 2:00 a.m. there?

jock -- Daylight saving is finished it is 12.30 am Sunday

gryphon -- Jock, 25 years ago, I was just getting off work at 2 AM, and

ready to PARTY!

gryphon -- {welcome gryphon}

terryw -- Hi Patrick, did the site ever work for you?

gryphon -- I've gotten connected to those pages, individually, but have not gotten access to the whole site yet.

gryphon -- Howdy! Hello, my screen name is gryphon. My actual name is Patrick Griffin. You can call me Patrick, or you can call me Pat, whichever you prefer.

don48312 -- {welcome don48312}

terryw -- hi Don

jock -- Hello Pat, Don

don48312 -- hi all

don48312 -- is everyone going to the Chicago convention?

terryw -- we are

jock -- No can not afford it

don48312 -- terry, we are tentatively planning to fly in sat morning and fly out sat

night and will catch most of the Kennedy stuff and maybe the banquet

don48312 -- yes, the SMA convention is pricing itself out of many peoples

pockets.

terryw -- The Families of SMA is a good organization who is seeking to raise funds for SMA type I, II, and III research. It costs them a great deal of money to rent rooms, fly in doctors, etc. Dr. Fischbeck will be there also. We have been fortunate enough for them to allow us to have a room there to talk about the Kennedy's Disease Association (for free!)

Unfortunately, for them to do all this, there is a cost. I'm sorry its not affordable for everyone. It would be tough to do this anywhere in the country without it being cost challenged.

terryw -- Don, You'll be coming though right? For one day?

don48312 -- planning to Susanne, if we can get plane tickets from Detroit

terryw -- today's topic is weight control. we will be starting in a few minutes

gryphon -- About weight control - is that holding in your belly when a pretty girl walks by?

terryw -- The issue of exercise and weight control is a tough issue since on our end we've been told not to exercise. The more you exercise, the more damage you could do to your muscles and they can atrophy without a chance to regenerate. Does anyone have any ideas on this?

jock -- Find it very hard to keep weight down due to lack of exercise

gryphon -- The best thing my doctor told me to do was to go to an inside (warm) swimming pool and do aquatic exercises.

gryphon -- Unfortunately, I don't live near any such pools.

don48312 -- Susanne, my doc said to exercise as much as I can.

jock -- I loved to be in the pool but was told to only do light exercise like walking in the pool no free style swimming at all

terryw -- Alistair: Why no freestyle swimming?

jock -- I fell and fractured my elbows and after that I was told that with the swimming action it could do damage to the tendons attached to the muscles

gryphon -- I've also been told to stretch (intelligently). That's supposed to be important, especially if you don't use that muscle group very much.

terryw -- Terry has worked in a heated pool also with a physical therapist and found they gave him stretching exercises. He wasn't burning fat that way. The problem is getting himself to move fast enough to burn fat!

terryw -- Terry stretches almost every night before going to bed... it

limbers up his muscles and helps with pain.

gryphon -- The pool exercises I was advised to do was to stand in water up

to my neck, and do range of motion exercises. It was supposed to give

light resistance, but not be too strenuous.

terryw -- He lays on his stomach, and bend his leg so that the heel

almost touches his rump. One leg at a time. I sometimes help him by gently

holding the foot down towards the rump. He gets a better stretch that way

gryphon -- I think there are two issues here - one is to exercise for

health, and the second is to exercise to burn calories. Am I right?

terryw -- Absolutely Patrick.

don48312 -- Pat, here in sunny fl, we have a walking pool which is 4ft deep all over, and we also have a chair lift to help the disabled in and out of the wading pool. I walk about 5 times a week, for a total of 6 - 7 miles a week.

terryw -- Don, that's great that you can walk 6-7 miles a week. How do you do that? How do you break it up each day?

don48312 -- I have worked myself up to walking 70 - 90 minutes at a time without stopping. it translates to over 1 mile a day

terryw -- Terry just said his legs would turn to rubber in 10 minutes. He's jealous.

jock -- I am like Terry 200 yards does it for me

don48312 -- no Susanne, there are many people here who can only walk in

the pool, not on ground. the water is a great assist, without stress on joints.

chuck -- I would have to struggle for 200 yds. with a cane.

gryphon -- I have old injuries in my back and right leg that accentuates the KD for me. Where I used to do at least 5 miles a day, now I am lucky to get across the street with out going down, and that is with a walking stick.

terryw -- Patrick: You use a wheelchair for any distance, so does Terry. Anyone else?

chuck -- I have a scooter and a wheelchair which I use.

don48312 -- I use w/c for malls, ballparks, etc. use a cane to steady myself at all

other times

jock -- Yes electric wheel chair when Christine has the car. Waiting for a scooter

gryphon -- Yes, I use a wheelchair or electric scooter whenever I shop. (And they are usually in terrible shape!) I take my own manual chair when I travel somewhere that I think I'll need it.

gryphon -- Certainly, one of these days I'll need to get an electric chair. My arms are telling me that they are not as strong as they used to be. What features in electric chairs are important.

toddrallen -- My experience has been that exercise is good for my strength long term, however it leaves me depleted for a day or two whenever I push more than normal.

toddrallen -- My problem is that I get many small injuries, right now my right ankle is getting kind of crunchy from my running program so I've had to lay off for the last week.

gryphon -- Don, I gotta leave Oz and move to Florida!

don48312 -- fl is set up for disabled, with accessibility for all the senior citizens.

terryw -- As far as calories go, Terry watches his intake. Coca-Cola and greasy foods are something he lays off of when he thinks he's gaining too much. He drinks more water.

jean -- {welcome jean}

terryw -- There is a YMCA here in our area that Terry could go to... $40 a

month though. Can't afford that.

terryw -- For the pool use.

don48312 -- Susanne, have u asked the YMCA if they have disabled rates?

terryw -- Don: Yeah, we asked. They said it makes no difference.

terryw -- What do others do to control their weight?

chuck -- So far I have never had a weight problem, however, my Dr. stresses low fat diet due to cholesterol. In fact, I have had weight loss over a period of years due to muscle loss.

jean -- To control my weight I'm drinking every day fruit-based-vinegar.

A tea spoon on a glass water.

terryw -- Jean: What does the vinegar do for you? How does that help with

the weight? I've never heard of this, but willing to give it a try.

jean -- Terryw- Vinegar is very good to burn fat and calories

terryw -- Terry's put me, Susanne, at the keyboard. His fingers are numb this morning... Its cold and rainy.

jock -- Hello Susanne

gryphon -- We've had naught but clouds, wind, rain, and thunderstorms here in Kansas. Even had two tornados in my county last week. The bad weather makes me hurt in places I didn't know I had! ;-0

terryw -- Welcome Jean!

gryphon -- Hi Jean. Comment allez yous?

jean -- Very good , just past 2 weeks in the Dom Rep

jock -- Hello Jean

gryphon -- Jean, I better keep my French to myself. How was the D.R.? Did you have a cigar?

jean -- Cigars are only for my friends. My wife and I prefer the fabulous Dominican RUM

terryw -- D.R. stands for Dominican Republic.

gryphon -- I mentioned to Jean if he had smoked any cigars in the Dominican Republic (DR) for a couple of reasons. The DR is perhaps the premier cigar region in the world. Also, there is recent evidence that nicotine reduces muscle spasms and twitches. Anyone heard about that?

don48312 -- has anyone talked to Fernando in Spain. I haven't seen him online lately?

terryw -- Don: No I have not heard from Fernando lately. Do you have his email address? He's on the contact list.

don48312 -- yes, Susanne, I have Fernando's e-mail, but have not seen him. maybe I will  e-mail him.

toddrallen -- {welcome toddrallen}

terryw -- Hi Todd.

jock -- Gi Day Todd

don48312 -- not heard pat

toddrallen -- hi folks, I was just reading the back stuff paused to get caught up.

terryw -- I've noticed through meeting over 15 individuals with KD face-to-face (and by looking at the photographs of those who've submitted personal stories) that most are thin... I'm wondering if this is a usual body frame with KD... Its an interesting observation. How would you all describe your frames?

don48312 -- 6" 290 lbs

chuck -- I am 6 ft. with med. frame. I usually weighed 175-185 and now try

hard to keep 145-150.

jean -- Gryphon- Right I make this observation by my brother (also KD) who smokes, his disease seems to progress slower than mine. For this reason I put this question on the questionnaire

jock -- 5/11 9o kilos

jean -- Jock what is mean by 5/11

jock -- 5foot 11 inches

gryphon -- I used to be thin, and had no weight problem when I ran every day. But when I started slowing down, my weight went up, mostly in the abdomen, but also around my face. I am now 5'11" (180 cm) and 218 lbs (99 kilos), I used to weigh only 160 (72 k).

toddrallen -- Weight has not been a problem for me, I eat absurdly large amounts of calories per day. I've gained maybe 5 pounds in the last 10 years. Of course I have lost some muscle mass too.

jean -- Himself: Normal 1,65 meter/60 Kg; my brother Thin 170meter/65 Kg; my uncle 1,70 meter/75 Kg

jock -- I was 96 kilos and lost weight but it is around my buttocks it has disappeared from

terryw -- Terry was bone thin before SBMA... He's put on a little bit around the gut. At least now he's not called "twig man". I think his lack of muscle strength also makes his "gut" stick out more than usual... He stands leaning back which pushes it out even more!

chuck -- Of course, I may be the oldest in this group at 73...Could this be a factor maybe???

gryphon -- I've never smoked cigarettes, but I have tried a pipe or cigars and they do seem to keep down the spasms, especially in the evening when I'm tired. I also hope it would cut down my hunger.

terryw -- Even though it would help, I think Terry would never try the cigar thing...

terryw -- I mean, even though it might help...

toddrallen -- The smoke doesn't aggravate choking/coughing problems?

gryphon -- I don't inhale the smoke. That's why I've tried cigars and pipes. I keep the windows open, too. A side effect is it seems to dry up my mouth, so actually I don't cough as much.

toddrallen -- I have asthma on top of SBMA and I avoid cigarette smoke like the plague because it triggers a choking response if I start coughing

jock -- I smoked 50 to 60 a day and drank beer and whiskey gave them up twenty years ago never lost weight When working I walked about 30 kilometers a day at the hospital

gryphon -- My second cousin on my mother's side, has KD, is 20 years older than I, and is pretty thin. My first cousin (his mom and mine were sisters), was the Same age as I, and he was chubby his whole life, and got very obese.

terryw -- gryphon, did your first cousin have KD?

gryphon -- Yes, my first cousin, Tim, had KD. In fact, his muscular weakness, etc. was first diagnosed as diabetes neuropathy. After I was diagnosed, I suggested that he ask his doctor to give him a DNA test. It was done, and that confirmed it.

gryphon -- He was very inactive, developed diabetes, and died a year ago of a heart attack.

chuck -- My brother who has KD and is now bedfast and 80 yrs old is "frail" thin.

toddrallen -- Wow, didn't think you could make it to 80 with this disease.

terryw -- We have heard of a few individuals into their 80's. No one in the 90's. This is very good news to hear. We were first told that individuals would most likely make it to their 60's... 70's at the most. Respiratory failure would be the cause to send you to heaven.

don48312 -- I am very very fortunate in that none of my bro's or sis's have the Kennedy's defect. wonder if the milkman is the cause??????

toddrallen -- It's not your father, it's your mother that you get KD from..

chuck -- My brother has been diagnosed since 1982, however, has had no

quality of life for the past 1-3 years.

gryphon -- Don, you bring up a great question. There's no doubt that KD is a genetic disorder. But how did it start in the first place? How did the AR gene first mutate? Are there new KD cases occurring spontaneously (not familial)?

terryw -- Terry knows of no other relations who have SBMA. His mother came from Germany in 1949 and left her family behind at age 16. She does not know of anyone who had symptoms. However, Terry's older brother (by one year) is starting to show symptoms. We can see it in his gait and start to hear it in his raspy voice.

toddrallen -- Pat, I don't really know, but must believe that the disease

crops up spontaneously, but with a very low rate. It seems to appear in

many populations though out the world.

don48312 -- My old Neurologist told me there is a very high incidence of

KD to PA and peoples backgrounds related to PA.

jock -- We seem to be getting of the subject of exercise?

terryw -- We know that the disease is in Japan, European countries, USA,

Canada, Mexico, Australia, South America, but have not heard of anyone

from Africa. Could be lack of technology and communication barriers.

jean -- To everyone. Exercise is very important, above all regularly and

WITHOUT EFFORT AND WEARINESS in the muscles. My daily program is 20

minutes "home trainer" with arm and shoulder exercises

terryw -- Alistair, what do you do for exercise and weight control?

terryw -- Terry and I believe you must exercise a little, or else your

muscles will waste from lack of use, but you also don't want to over do it

and damage your muscles. Its a very thin line either way.

jean -- I forget the wrist exercises

jock -- I walk as much as possible in the garden and when go shopping but

have to have a rest as my legs get very tired. for my arms I do nothing

but sit a type letters

terryw -- Terry was helping me in the yards a few weeks ago, digging with

a hand shovel. He could not move his fingers for 3 days. That was 4 weeks

ago and his fingers are still giving him trouble moving as easily as they

did before this. He believes he over did it and damaged his fingers.

toddrallen -- Exercise has definitely been beneficial to me when I manage

to keep it on a regular basis.

gryphon -- When exercising, heavy weights (or exertion) and fewer

repetitions build muscle mass and strength, but it tears down muscle

fibers in the process. Light weights and many repetitions help build

endurance.

toddrallen -- My problem is I'll stop for a while and then over do it when

starting back up. One needs to be very regular.

jock -- Weight just keep my eye on it as my doctor says if I lose to much

fat it will effect my muscle that are left some times I do not know who to

believe

gryphon -- Exercising to a certain safe percentage or your max heart rate

(see an exercise book or trainer for the formula) is aerobic exercise and

it has beneficial effects on your heart, circulatory system, lungs, and

weight.

toddrallen -- I've switched from high weight low rep exercise to lighter

weights to avoid injury.

jock -- I was doing breathing exercises which I believe has helped as my

last lung function test shown a improvement from the other tests

gryphon -- When dieting, without exercising, the body first loses water

(causing an increase of cramping) and then starts shrinking muscle mass.

It is the body's way to protect itself through famine.

terryw -- The quandary I find is that no doctor or physical therapist can

really advise someone with SBMA what to do with exercise. In fact, the KDA

has had some physical therapists write to us asking what they should do. I

wish we had an answer. Its something we're hoping to find out more about

with the questionnaire that will be coming out soon to all of you!

don48312 -- lol

gryphon -- The fewer muscle cells, the less you are able to burn calories.

Yo-yo dieting (starving, then eating), reduces muscle mass, yet increases

fat. That is very unhealthy, even for those without KD.

toddrallen -- I've never dieted I feel weaker if I don't eat a lot.

jock -- Same here Todd

terryw -- Terry has to eat or else... he's hypoglycemic. He'll get grouchy and shaky.

gryphon -- There is evidence that diabetes and blood sugar problems are

associated with KD. I also notice that I get very shaky if I don't eat for a long period.

terryw -- Terry doesn't stop his intake, just changes what he's

in taking... from junk foods to better foods.

toddrallen -- That's the same for me, I get shaky if I miss a meal. I like

to eat a lot of carbs, especially fruit juices, keep my fat intake low though.

don48312 -- my diabetes causes me to shake if I don't eat

terryw -- Chuck: Do you find this to be true for you also?

gryphon -- Remember, associated doesn't mean CAUSED. KD could make

diabetes more frequent, or it may just be a side effect of inactivity, or

it may be from an entirely different cause (such as inheritance).

toddrallen -- Perhaps the muscle and nerve problems just make other

metabolic irregularities like hypoglycemia more pronounced in effect.

gryphon -- I try to eat healthier, too. I try to keep fruit, low fat

cheese, and whole grain bread around, so that if I eat, my blood sugar

won't rise suddenly, then crash shortly thereafter.

terryw -- Jean: Do you get shaky also when you do not eat at your regular time?

chuck -- Yes, I get shaky from not eating but my hands shake some all the

time. Myself or brother have no diabetes or blood sugar problems so far.

terryw -- The tremor in the hands is a normal symptom of SBMA. However,

Terry's shaking of the hands is exacerbated by not eating.

gryphon -- What about hydration? Does everyone drink plenty of fluids,

especially water?

jock -- My hands shake all the time pick up a soft drink by the time it

gets to my mouth half of it has gone.

toddrallen -- I've found that I do much better and get less post exercise

fatigue if I eat an hour or so before starting.

chuck -- Yes, I find this also. I have had to quit writing almost altogether.

gryphon -- A side effect of not eating is water excretion. That can

accentuate shaking, also, as well as fatigue.

terryw -- Terry drinks a lot of water every day. He said he can't measure,

cause as I just found out, he sticks his head under the faucet and drinks

it like a dog. I guess we're saving on dishwashing.

don48312 -- I try to drink 64oz of water daily. to keep kidneys flushed

jean -- Sometimes I need food on regular time, but sometimes don't eat the

hole day without problem

don48312 -- its a man thing Susanne

jock -- Water rusts you inside

gryphon -- However, If I drink as much as my doctor tells me, I'd be doing

a Chester (hobbling) to the loo every five minutes... :-0

toddrallen -- I cut way back on my fluid intake for a while due to

frequent urination. It didn't work, just made me feel worse.

terryw -- Does anyone else's eyes have a yellow tinge? Terry has always

had this, not bright white eyes. We believe its due to the CK levels... caused by

toxins in the liver. he doesn't drink alcohol and does not have Hepatitis.

toddrallen -- Does CK stand for Creatine kinase?

terryw -- Todd: yes, Creatine kinase also called CPK... creative phosphokinase

Found in the heart, skeletal muscles and brain)

don48312 -- no yellow here

jean -- I also have a yellow tinge

gryphon -- Susanne, are you sure that the yellow in Terry's eyes is not

just the reflection of your beautiful golden hair? ;-)

terryw -- Gryphon... thanks for the compliment, but not my hair reflected

jean -- I drink many water the hole day, (especially when we have a party,

but only water who past the brewery lol)

gryphon -- Jean, you never own THAT water, you just rent for awhile!

toddrallen -- I did find that avoiding caffeine and alcohol helped some

with frequent urination.

jock -- I must admit I drink coffee by the cup all day every day. But

don't have a problem running to the toilet!

gryphon -- To cut back on the diuretic effects of caffeine, I went to

making decaf iced tea. However, there must be something else in tea that

makes you pee...

terryw -- Gryphon: Could it be water! LOL.

terryw -- LOL, ONFL Jean!

jean -- Terry what do you mean with OTFL

terryw -- OTFL Jean. Not good at my internet acronyms!

terryw -- OTFL... On the floor laughing.

don48312 -- Susanne, most puter types use rotfl

don48312 -- rolling on the floor laughing

don48312 -- at least that is what ive seen the most

terryw -- Don: I'm not much of a chat girl. So I'm just learning my

acronyms. Thanks for a new one!

gryphon -- Don, KD types use COTFL: crawling on the floor laughing...

don48312 -- we are all just learning

don48312 -- lol pat

gryphon -- Susanne, remind me. Increased CPK levels in the blood is a

marker for what? I can't remember.

don48312 -- pat, marker???????

toddrallen -- I thought CPK was associated with heart damage.

gryphon -- Marker-high CPK = muscle damage? Or what?

don48312 -- while KD'ers have high CPK levels, I didn't know they had been

identified as to cause

jean -- Gryphon You are right

terryw -- CPK levels in the blood are measured when a doctor suspects a

muscle problem. Of course there could be another problem with the liver or

other muscle damage. Different CK or CPK levels are used to diagnose

different kinds of problems. The enzymes are leaking out of the muscle

tissue. However, these enzymes are not what causes the muscle problems,

just a result of them.

terryw -- We may be off in relating the yellow eyes to the CK... We want

to talk to a doctor to learn more. These enzymes probably don't cause this...

jock -- Quick Question Terry Are we getting any new registrations onto the

KD Assoc

terryw -- We are getting about 1-2 new individuals a week with KD on

average finding the Kennedy's Disease Association.

don48312 -- Susanne, my neurologist at the MDA clinic has offered to

attend a chat in the future. let me know if u r interested?

terryw -- Don: Of course we're interested! Please have him email us at

This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.. He's also welcome to visit the Web site:

www.kennedysdisease.org

don48312 -- its a her, chauvinist, lol

terryw -- Don: Sorry! I of all people would not want to offend. I'm

usually on that him/her horse myself!

toddrallen -- My neurologist might be willing to do so as well, although

she specializes in ALS not KD..

don48312 -- I already gave her the KD site and she has visited it.

don48312 -- she seems pretty up on KD

terryw -- Todd: you're neurologist also. We'd love to have any outside

experts and doctors to join a chat as a special featured guest. We'd like

to have Dr. Merry talk about the SBMA mouse model that was developed in

January by her team and Dr. Fischbeck to come again. We'll see if they are

available to do so in the near future.

gryphon -- Back to exercise - does anyone feel worse (pain, stiffness,

spasms) in the morning when they get up? If so, what do you do about it?

toddrallen -- YES, exercising above my normal daily amount can leave me

almost crippled for a day or two.

jock -- Yes in my hips but once walking for a few steps it disappears

terryw -- Terry said the middle of the day is best for him. The morning

until his pain pill kicks in he feels bad and in the evening when his pain

pill wears off he's exhausted and feels bad.

toddrallen -- I took out a concrete sidewalk with a sledge hammer last

week. I had a lot of pain for the next 3 days.

terryw -- We have about 8 minutes before the chat is cut off.

don48312 -- I experience no pain due to KD

don48312 -- lucky I guess

don48312 -- all I have is weakness

gryphon -- I'm like Terry - I really hurt in the morning, and am really

body-tired in the evening. I find that in the morning, just getting up and

sitting in a chair for at least 30 minutes, I feel a lot better.

chuck -- I think as the day goes on and I seem to wear down just from

normal activity.

toddrallen -- I take a hot shower to relieve exercise induced pain. It

seems to help quite a bit.

jock -- I can relate to that Todd I helped my daughter to move house and

for a week I was sore in my hips with the walking and lifting,

gryphon -- The worst is if I have to get up, get ready and leave - like

going to a Doctor appointment. Everything seems worse - my pain, weakness,

etc.

terryw -- Hot showers and baths, our Jacuzzi at 103 degrees, helps Terry

quite a bit.

toddrallen -- That for me is the worst. Pain in my muscles tends to go

away fast, pain in my joints can linger for days or weeks.

toddrallen -- A Jacuzzi, ahh, that would be fantastic. I wish I had space for one..

terryw -- The whole reason we bought the Jacuzzi was specifically for

Terry's SBMA.

gryphon -- What kind of stretching does anyone find especially helpful?

toddrallen -- I always stretch my legs before jogging. I also start up

slow, walking first. If I just take off running I am likely to step funny

and hurt my feet or knees.

gryphon -- When I used to run competitively, I had a routine. I'd jun

slowly until I broke a sweat. Then I'd stop and stretch my warm muscles,

then run hard five miles or so, then jog to cool down, then stretch again.

gryphon -- I really miss the running - the floating high feeling when all

my parts were on automatic. But I can't dwell on "what was"...

toddrallen -- My toes are especially weak, stretching my legs seems to get

my toes going a bit and minimizes my hurting them when I run.

terryw -- Well, all, I'm going to have to start the sign-offs, we'll be

cut off in four minutes. I hope the chat has been helpful and hopefully

we'll see you in two weeks!

chuck -- Bye - enjoyed. Good luck to all.

gryphon -- Thanks to everyone. These chats really improve my mood

tremendously!!!

terryw -- {goodbye terryw}

jock -- Well all it has been most rewarding for me this morning. I will go

to bed as you will be doing your daily chores and I hope that I can join

in the next time the chat is on. I go into hospital on Friday for my sleep

test and will give a report on my letter to all. Look after your selves

From Down Under Australia Alistair Jock

jock -- Good Bye All

gryphon -- Jock, I think of you when I watch Survivor

toddrallen -- Bye Alistair, and thanks for the visit. Keep up the emails.

jock -- {goodbye jock}

jean -- {goodbye jean}


End Chat